Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II

CNN: Your Majesty do you understand a little bit Turkish?

King Abdullah: I know a few words, I travelled to Turkey when I was quite younger on a private holiday, I know a few words to get around.

CNN: Because when I interviewed your father he told me, he said that I understand but I cannot speak properly.

King Abdullah: Because of my grandmother, the Queen Mother, the older generation of my family most does speak Turkish and so he grew up listening to Turkish so he understood but he was always a bit nervous about speaking.

CNN: Your father was such a person that when one was close to him he or she would feel special? Was that not the case?

King Abdullah: He had that ability of making every individual feel very, very special, a charisma that was, I mean not only for Jordanians I mean we used to describe him as a king but also the father of everybody in this country, he had this effect wherever he was around the world. This generosity and warmth…

CNN: You must be proud of him.

King Abdullah: We all were very proud of him.

CNN: This is very pleasing.

King Abdullah: Jordan made it where it is today because of him.

CNN: Good to hear that. Let’s start with your visit, what would you like to hear in Ankara? What is your most important expectation? What do you want them to say?

King Abdullah: Well you know these are a continuation of visits that we've been having with Turkey obviously as you just mentioned and His Majesty King Hussein had a very strong and warm relationship with the Turkish government going on for many years. I had the great honour of having had two or three visits to Turkey since His Late Majesty passed away. And so this visit will also be just a continuation of strengthening the bilateral relations that are very good but also we have issues that are plaguing both Turkey and Jordan, on one side there's the future of Iraq and on the other the Israeli-Palestinian issue and even maybe the reform aspects of what is being expected of the Middle East. And there are three major issues.

CNN: There are three major issues that I want to ask about, what does Turkey represent for you and your people?

King Abdullah: Turkey plays such a strategic relationship for the whole of the Middle East. As we've all said we've had a lot of historical ties with Turkey we've had some very strong political relationships with Turkey. And Turkey is in a position that can play an even-handed role on the Middle East because of its cultural closeness to the Middle East but also with Europe so its sort of a gateway for both sides of two continents.

CNN: At the same time we have a feeling that you know it seems that Turkey is a bit far away from the problems or daily intricacies of the region. Do you agree?

King Abdullah: I think there was a time in sort of the last century when I think Turkey was looking very strongly towards Europe but I think in the recent decade if not even more than that because of the regional problems, because the future of Iraq has such an impact on Turkey because the Israeli-Palestinian issue plays such a vital role. You have a very good relationship with Israel. But you have a position to be of more influence in the Middle East and so I think that there is now a shift in policy where Turkey is reaching out to the Middle East and the Middle East is reaching out to Turkey.

CNN: Interesting. I never thought that there was that change in attitudes both in Turkey and the Middle East.

King Abdullah: I'm feeling that there is because there are issues that we need to resolve together. Maybe the Israeli-Palestinian issue was a bit further away from you in the past couple of years but then when relationships with Israel. Egypt has its relations with Israel so does Jordan so there's a common factor that we have with Turkey. Iraq is definitely an issue that you have to solve. It is a country that has a border with Iraq as has Jordan as so many other countries so the need for us to coordinate for our own vital strategic interest is something that we've never had before.

CNN: Iraq got Turkey into the Middle East in a way.

King Abdullah: Well I think the Israeli-Palestinian issue did to an extent but Iraq I think has definitely changed that.

CNN: What kind of an image would you and your people like to see out of Turkey? There are two issues in relation to Turkey; a country with soft Islam, and a country with a secular democratic system. Which one would you pick? Which of these roles do you think Turkey should assume?

King Abdullah: It's a mixture of both and I think if you have to look at Turkey as being sort of our northern neighbour and having had experience with Europe. That is a particular role that Turkey can play but soft Islam is also something that is of vital importance. After 9/11 we now have a major issue with that side of Islam, we have a conflict between I think the overwhelming majority of Muslims against extremist factions. And Turkey being such a large Islamic nation not necessarily an Arabic one, which is in a way unique, and important plays a very important role in how do we come together and deal with the struggle that we are having inside of Islam, which is a tremendous struggle that we need to face over the next two decades I think.

CNN: We will come to that factor now you said that Turkey was too much involved in Europe more than in the Middle East…

King Abdullah: In the past…

CNN: But now Turkey is trying to get into the European Union. How do people in Islamic countries look at this?

King Abdullah: I personally see it as a plus and I hope that Turkey is incorporated into the European Union. And again I think there is the cultural flexibility that turkey can take. And being an Islamic nation inside the European Union that has relationships historically with the Arab world I think will put Turkey in a very good position to be able to balance sort of East and West.

CNN: How do you see this new government, this more conservative, religiously tinted, more Islam is there. Will this strengthen relations you think?

King Abdullah: Relations are going to stay with countries no matter what political parties are. I think the relationship that we've had with this particular government has been very good. They came obviously at a difficult time just before the war with Iraq, and we've never seen anything negative in the relationship we've had with this government. I know there were some rumours of issues with troops before the Iraq war that never happened. There were some concerns between the Turkish government and Jordan's position on the political scene. There were some rumours I read and none of these things happened so actually we have a very good relationship.

CNN: I'm glad.

CNN: Do you think there is a clash or ethnic confrontation in Iraq. Is there this danger for the future?

King Abdullah: There is a danger. This is something I think all of us were concerned about before it happened. I believe that society leaders, let it be Kurds or Sunnis or Shia, are very aware of this that we cannot afford, nobody can afford inside Iraq, to have a civil war, and none of the neighbours of Iraq can afford a civil war. As you see the instability we have seen and the bombings of the past several weeks, the possibility of civil disorder-civil war is becoming more and more a possibility. I think this is why…

CNN: Should we be afraid?

King Abdullah: I think we should be very concerned. Now, hopefully Iraqis will be able to move forward in their society and Iraq will be for the Iraqis as soon as possible. But we need to work all of us together to make sure that that ethnic conflict does not become an issue and that civil war is avoided. If not, can you imagine the overspill, not only into Jordan, but into Turkey and all the countries surrounding it. So we all have a vested interest to work together on this.

CNN: But we are getting to there, I mean the tension is there between the Kurds and the Sunnis and the Shiites. Do you think that the Americans understand Iraq?

King Abdullah: Well, you know, they have some good people inside. But again, I think we have some cultural difference that you as a Turk would understand. We in the Middle East have a bit of a feeling for how to exchange culturally with this particular example, with Iraqis, and I think there is way in America… they don't understand how to deal with the population. As a result I think some of the issues that are being dealt with on the different cultural groups, whether Kurds or Sunni or Shia, are not actually helping us together. So we have to again give our advice, and our role, Turkey, Jordan and the other countries surrounding Iraq is to try to assist the Americans to have a better understanding I think.

CNN: Was it right to topple Saddam?

King Abdullah: Well, this is an argument that can go on until we see maybe if Iraq a year from now sorts itself out and Iraqis have their own future. Then…

CNN: Then you say no?

King Abdullah: I mean, it was the right thing to move Saddam. If civil war breaks out, then it was a mistake. I'm always optimistic so we have to give it a chance.

CNN: But there is one thing which is very clear that the Americans didn't know post-Saddam. And they didn't plan well, they didn't know. They were expecting that the Shiites would great them with flowers.. and you tell them, I mean they were listening to you more than anybody else…

King Abdullah: Yes, if you know Washington there are different elements inside Washington and different views and they were getting reports of some of the people, for example some agencies of government, that suggested a certain policy we have once Americans came in and that actually didn't happen. And also I think the coordination between the State Department and the Pentagon should have been stronger so that there is a balance between military participation and civil participation when the country is overtaken.

CNN: When we look to the Kurdish side, their stars are rising; they have now gotten their autonomy. Should that bother the neighbours?

King Abdullah: Well, again, that's a difficult question for us to answer in Jordan because the Kurdish issue does not really affect directly but it does affect as we well know Syria, Turkey, Iran and obviously the future of Iraq. So there has to be some sort of compromise that needs to happen inside of Iraq. I think on that point of view the majority of the Americans I think the president of the United States understands the sensitivities of the Kurdish issue, but how do you get a balance of the Kurds inside Iraq to feel they have a vested future as part of a new Iraq that doesn't create problems for some of its neighbours and this is another difficult question.

CNN: Should we be afraid? Because they are one step away from independence. And Turkey, Iran or Syria cannot fight the Kurds to stop the independence.

King Abdullah: Yes, yes, I mean you can't do that. You know it is a question I would find very difficult to answer.. again there was a lot of autonomy with the Kurds even in the last years leading up to the war and the removal of the Saddam regime so they were used to a certain degree of autonomy, it is difficult to go back from that. So I think the American will have to find some sort of formula that will give the Kurds a hope that they can have a say inside their own nation without sort of the great nation of Iraq.

CNN: Where are we heading, it seems the Shiites will run Iraq, Iraq as a democratic state, if it's going to be a democratic state?

King Abdullah: If it's a democratic state and if it's going to a Shia state, that's another scenario. Again if you look at the Kurdish issue, the Kurds are Sunnis…it depends how you look at the mix.

CNN: So, you have Shiites, Sunnites and Kurds together forming a sort of coalition.

King Abdullah: I don't know, but I'm just saying what people say: the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's are Shia, it's not exactly true if you consider the Kurds as Sunnis also. It is part of the complications of Iraqi society.

CNN: Let's get to this project: the Great Middle East project. Do you know what it is?

King Abdullah: There is two parts to this obviously.. what we are trying to do, we have a reform programme in Jordan that is very aggressive but we know that there is a possibility the G-8 Summit in Atlanta, Georgia this year that if we as Arab countries don't come up with some sort of reform blue print one maybe dictated to us by the G-8 countries. We are working very hard at the Arab Summit to say to fellow Arab countries we understand that democracy has to be home-grown we understand that every country sets a different pace. If we don't come up with a blue print, if we don't come up with some objectives, then what might happen by some western countries is a reform agenda that will be forced on you. Now either way, Jordan is on the safe side. We have our agenda, we are moving forward, and it doesn't affect Jordan. But I can see the effect of a reform programme being forced on many countries in the region having a very negative backlash. So we're all trying to work very hard now to try to come up with something tangible at the Arab Summit that we can build on till we get to the heart of the G-8. our Foreign Ministers are working on some guidelines that these are issues that many countries will have to address when it comes to civil liberties, economic reform and political reform.

CNN: In a way, countries like Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, you are in a very better position. I mean, you are having. I would also like to ask about this. What do you do regarding the development of your country? For I have been here ten years ago and when I am back today, I see a real rich, modern, developing country.

King Abdullah: We have an agenda which actually started the first six months of this responsibility after His Late Majesty passed away, obviously we had a very bad economic situation we had hardly any money in the Central Bank no investors were coming to Jordan, what we managed to do, I kept on hearing complaints from the private sector, complaints from the public sector, they were always pointing the finger at each other. What I decided to do is I got everybody into a hotel and we spent two days, and I said until we come up with solutions, no body is leaving. The first six hours I think they thought I was kidding. When they realised I was serious they actually sat down and came up with a social economic reform programme to be used as a basic model to get Jordan to where we are today. I mean our exports to the United States in 1999 were something like 14 million and now they are 660 million. In the Central Bank of Jordan, when His Late Majesty passed away, there must have been only about 600 or less than that million, now we are at three-point-something billion and that's part of the relationship between private and public sectors and we have worked really hard on the social-economic programme.

CNN: How can the Americans come up with a blueprint, if the Muslim countries can't come up with it?

King Abdullah: This is the danger. What would probably happen is that the Americans will come up with a blueprint saying you will have to follow this. And this is what we're trying to say to fellow Arab countries: that it is better for you to come up with your own blueprint understanding what your countries can do as opposed to one that is imposed from outside.

CNN: Is it possible, Your Majesty, to go to Egypt, or Saudi Arabia and say “hey, you are going to have an election and you are going to do this and that?”

King Abdullah: There are certain timelines that you can do it in; you can look at even social reform so that you can protection for women, for children; you can look at economic reform that gives more judicial transparency; then you can talk about political reform. I don't think anybody expects in one day that you're suddenly going to open the country up. You have to have the right mechanisms to guide societies forward. In Jordan, in the last five years, we've put social and economic reforms first because, as I think you would understand in Turkey, reform works better when people have a full stomach. So we concentrated on those. Now that we are in a better position, we felt that in the past year and a half we can now tackle the political reform aspect. So people have to look at reform in a comprehensive approach; and each country sets its own pace. This is the thing: you can't say everybody by two thousand whatever, you will have to do this particular regulation, this particular reform; because different countries have different cultures, different social issues inside them they have to deal with. But I think it's the perception among people…

CNN: What can the Americans tell you? This country is run in a different democratic way, I mean there is democracy in this country. It bothers you that…

King Abdullah: Part of the problem in the ME is that the word “democracy” is thrown very strongly in the ME. Democracy in the US is completely different than democracy in Turkey. This is part of the issue. I think when we say we want to liberalise our country, to move our country forward, that's a different issue. And it is very difficult when people want to take a blueprint of how the American society is and put it society is here. Again, Turkey is a fine example: if you look at the American constitution and try adopting it for the Turkish people…

CNN: But that would be a bit problematic. Seeing the Americans going around with their new project, do you expect them to come and knock on your door saying do this, do that?

King Abdullah: The president of the US does it out of good intention. Looking at their experiences in Iraq and seeing a regime that repressed people, I think they feel that the whole ME is [inaudible]. One of the major things about reform in the ME, which even affects Turkey, is that you can't have reform in the ME until you solve one major issue and that's the Israeli-Palestinian one. You can't have reform without getting rid of instability in the ME which is the core issue of the Israeli-Palestinian problem because every country will be frightened to open up with this crisis being central.

CNN: What is Al Qaeda? I know your intelligence is the best intelligence on Al Qaeda and people are trying to get as much information as possible? What are they trying to do?

King Abdullah: I think extremists such as Al Qaeda are not out to create a problem between East and West. It's a battle inside of Islam; you're either with me or I have the right to take you down. It's an extremist movement which obviously I think you understand in Turkey. And I think 9/11 was just to get a struggle between East and West, to weaken Islamic and Arab countries throughout the region and I think they're actually more of a threat to Muslims than they are to…

CNN: What should we do then?

King Abdullah: There are certain phases for combating it: one is obviously is the military part or the intelligence part of actually taking the too extremists and shutting them down; second part, which is… that would take one or two years in the cycle, then there's the financial support that these organisations get and need to be shut down; but the long-term struggle is still going to be that of the educational part. What these people interpret as the Quran, is not what the majority of Muslims believe in. And that educational part of it will take a long time. I don't know in Turkey; my concern is more in the Far East, if you look at countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia and other countries that have Islamic movements there, where the local doesn't understand Arabic as a first language; so when the [inaudible] come in and say this is what the Quran says, they don't know any better. So education is part of it. Part of it was, to be quite honest, it was politically incorrect to talk about this several years ago. 9/11 allowed us Muslims to be able to takea long look in the mirror, and hopefully the silent majority will stop being silent and say this is not the Islam that we were brought up with.

CNN: So it is not a clash of civilisations?

King Abdullah: I believe that Al Qaeda, and subsidiaries of, would like to make it a clash of civilisations to weaken Islam. This is my own personal view and most Muslims should know that this is a fight that we have internally. We are at a struggle inside Islam.

CNN: Are we going to be able to win?

King Abdullah: You've already seen sort of discussions, again I don't know about Turkey, but people are now questioning sort of a religious segment, they're more transparent now; we know how they are, we know what they think, we know what their agendas are. You suffered from bombings in Turkey; we've obviously had a major problem with them in Jordan, and so I think the majority of citizens are beginning to wake up to the idea that they have a major psychological challenge on their hands.

CNN: Your Majesty, so great to talk to you. Just one last thing: I shouldn't talk on this level but, you know, the Turkish public opinion is very much interested in the controversy about the Uzan family, and as you are going there and the journalists are going to ask you this question. We know the Uzan family was granted citizenship, it was published in the official gazette.

King Abdullah: The person that I have known for several years is Hakan…. after school. He came here as an investor long before any of the problems happened and he had some difficulties with his investments. But at that time and to this day we do facilitate a lot of incentives for investors to come into Jordan, so a passport was issued.

CNN: But…I don't understand… I don't know the system?

King Abdullah: Because of some of the problems he had with his investments, he left Jordan. And the passport he had will not be renewed. Instructions were issued by the government to cancel and confiscate it…it has been rendered invalid.

CNN: Is the Uzan family in Jordan?

King Abdullah: No. And I don't know where the whereabouts of the Uzan family are.

CNN: You have been to Istanbul many times?

King Abdullah: I've been to Istanbul many times. I got to see many lovely parts of the city. My wife and I love Istanbul; it has a certain flavour and actually both of us are looking forward to being in Istanbul for part of our visit.

CNN: Turkey will be very happy to see you. Your Majesty, thank you very much for your time. It was great. And to see Jordan run by such an energetic and wonderful young king…