Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II
CNN: Your Majesty, thank you very much for joining us on LATE EDITION. Welcome to Washington.
King Abdullah: Thank you very much.
CNN: Let's get right to the issue in Iraq. Jordan has huge interests, huge stakes involved in what's going on. The impression we get from afar is that it looks like it could fall apart. How bad is the situation from your perspective?
King Abdullah: Well, I don't think we're at a point where it will apart. I think our concern at the moment is that the disengagement that the government wants to do in July...
CNN: The US …
King Abdullah: The US disengagement, which is on the security, also handing over governance to the Iraqis, has to be carefully articulated and worked out so that we don't leave the Iraqis in a sort of a impossible situation to be able to go on with their lives.
CNN: But can this work, given the opposition, the apparent opposition of the Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani, who wants elections before there can be some sort of transition?
King Abdullah: But again, I think that if you could have elections, you have to give all the constituencies in Iraq a fair chance and a balance.
CNN: But it's not realistic right now.
King Abdullah: If we're keeping to the July deadline, this is our concern. There needs to be some homework done to make sure that all of Iraqi society has a fair chance at elections. At the moment, some groups are much more organised than others.
CNN: Because the concern is, at least expressed by many US officials, if there were elections, the Shiite population in Iraq, which is about 60 per cent, could win and forge some sort of ayatollah-led Islamic fundamentalist regime, which would not necessarily be what the coalition wants.
King Abdullah: Or a lot of the surrounding countries in the area. There is a concern, I think, even before going into the war...
CNN: Are you concerned about that?
King Abdullah: Well, we, in Jordan, because of the sort of the Hashemite lineage, are always very close to the Shia, but the concern of the Shia republic is one that could affect destabilisation for the whole region, and so this is something that has to be taken into account.
CNN: Do you feel safer now, Jordan, because Saddam Hussein is on the run?
King Abdullah: Well, we've actually always felt very safe in Jordan. It's the situation in the Middle East is somewhat unstable because of 9/11, because of the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and obviously the instability in Iraq. So the region is unsettled, much more than it was before, but it's because of a series of different issues.
CNN: All of our viewers remember when the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad was attacked. Do you know now who was responsible for that?
King Abdullah: We have some strong leads. The usual suspects are the ones that everybody says they are. We may have some other leads that there may be some other people involved. Those are still being followed up.
CNN: Who do you suspect did it?
King Abdullah: Well, I wouldn't want to say who we suspect. What has been announced is we are sort of past the line that we're toeing at the moment, but we do have our intelligence capability. We are following up one or two leads that might lead us to other sources.
CNN: The question is, are these terrorist attacks in Iraq, forget about the Jordanian embassy, in general, the work of Saddam loyalists or foreign terrorists who come into Iraq?
King Abdullah: I think it's a mixture of both, quite honestly. But we're seeing more of a systematic campaign by insurgents, and so I think that that is something that we have to look at over the next month or so. There is more of a pattern. That means that this is more of an organised, premeditated sort of a national campaign that is something that (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CNN: Do you think -- do you see the fingerprints of Al Qaeda in Iraq right now?
King Abdullah: There is I think the prints of Al Qaeda, definitely.
CNN: In what sense?
King Abdullah: Well, again, some of the things that we Jordanians have been up against are directly linked to Al Qaeda, terrorist organisations based in that country.
CNN: Has there been an alliance forged between Al Qaeda and Saddam loyalists, these fedayeen who are still out there trying to fight?
King Abdullah: If there is an alliance, I would imagine it's a loose one. Both have maybe common aims, and therefore common grounds to interact, but I don't think it is as sinister as you may have just alluded to.
CNN: Where are these Al Qaeda, these foreign terrorists coming into Iraq from? For example, is Jordan the source, the border between Jordan and Iraq, how secure is that?
King Abdullah: That is I like to think the most secure border. And I know from the days when I was commander of special forces, His Majesty gave me the mission as commander of special operations to secure that border. That is the most secure border.
CNN: That's secure. What about Syria?
King Abdullah: Well, there's always -- this is the issue that's being discussed at the moment. I still think that across the Syrian border, it's not as secure as all of us in the international community might like.
CNN: Can the Syrian government of President Bashar Assad tighten up security to prevent these foreign terrorists...
King Abdullah: Yes.
CNN: ... from infiltrating into Iraq?
King Abdullah: Yes.
CNN: Why isn't he doing that?
King Abdullah: Well, that's the question that we both have been asking. I think that this has been put to him very strongly in the past several months, that he needs to be more vigilant. Now, whether the orders from Damascus haven't got down to the people on the ground. That's the speculation, but I think all of us have been very open and direct that that border needs to be secured as quickly as possible.
CNN: What about Iran? I know you were just recently there. How secure is that border, and are terrorists coming into Iraq from Iran?
King Abdullah: That, because of the terrain, is probably the most difficult border to protect. All I can say from my meetings with Iranians and from what I've seen on the ground, there has been an improvement on the border flow, but to what extent I really can't give you exact figures.
CNN: What about the money flow that Saddam Hussein had a lot of money, some of it has been found, but presumably a lot is still out there. There's money moving around. How big of a problem is that in financing the insurgency against the coalition?
King Abdullah: From what little I know, there is a lot of money being passed on the inside of Iraq to support insurgency activities. And I think it's taken probably coalition forces by surprise to what extent financial support mechanism is (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CNN: So they still have money that they're...
King Abdullah: I think so, yes.
CNN: There has been some controversy involving Ahmed Chalabi, the Jordanian government, your government has indicted him. He's wanted in Jordan.
King Abdullah: And the Lebanese.
CNN: And Lebanon. How confident are you that -- and he's a member of the Iraqi Governing Council right now -- what are you doing about that? You see him as what?
King Abdullah: Well, again, this is up to Iraqis and we don't want to get involved in the internal mechanism of the Iraqi government. We do have an issue with Chalabi, and I presume if he becomes the prominent member of the new Iraq, and that's something that has to be dealt with between the new Iraqi government and the Jordanian government. At the moment, I guess I can say from what I know of the issue, there is somewhat of a truce between Chalabi and Jordan at the moment. I haven't gotten involved in it, but I presume that because he's indicted in Jordan, because he's indicted in Lebanon, and he has issues in the international community. We are going to have to solve this problem.
CNN: He says he was framed by pro-Saddam Hussein elements in Jordan and Lebanon.
King Abdullah: So all I can say from what I've seen, I would have to support the position that the government took on indicting him several years ago. That's not to say that obviously politics pay a big role at the moment, and as I said, this issue should be resolved at the state-to-state level.
CNN: So you're saying that there could be a truce, some sort of deal worked out with him, between Jordan?
King Abdullah: Well, you know, if he has a leadership role in Iraq, we're going to have to. We're going to have to solve this problem. He obviously defends his innocence. I don't want to get too much into it, but from what they say, his innocence is something that we're going to have to deal with.
CNN: Are Saddam Hussein's daughters, other family members still in Jordan?
King Abdullah: The daughters are still in Jordan, yes.
CNN: And how are they doing?
King Abdullah: From what little I know, I think they're doing -- life is normal. They are looking after their children, and trying to put their lives together, I think.
CNN: And they are there for the time being?
King Abdullah: For the time being.
CNN: They're welcome in Jordan. Do you have any suspicion where Saddam Hussein is right now? You assume he's alive?
King Abdullah: I assume he's alive, yes.
CNN: And you think he's in Jordan -- in Iraq?
King Abdullah: He's in Iraq, definitely.
CNN: He's in Iraq. But do you have any suspicion where?
King Abdullah: It's anybody's guess.
CNN: Let's talk a little bit about the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, if there is a peace process. Do you believe that Prime Minister Sharon and Palestinian Authority President Arafat can ever work out a deal, these two leaders?
King Abdullah: I think that the animosity between them makes it very difficult for the Israelis and the Palestinians to move forward with the peace process. The two characters have issues with each other. That's not to say that the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority can't move forward.
CNN: But you say that they have issues, because there's some movement here and there...
King Abdullah: There's no trust, there is no confidence in each other, that's the major issue. And the Israelis and the Palestinians are suffering because of that.
CNN: Who is to blame?
King Abdullah: Well, again, this is the problem. The major issue of the Palestinian-Israeli problem is the blame game. Everybody keeps pointing the finger at each other, to an extent that they forget what the bigger picture is. The bigger picture is to move to stability, to give hope to Israelis and Palestinians, and get the roadmap up and running. At the moment, the blame game is only resulting in the loss of life of Israelis and Palestinians.
CNN: The Israelis say they really can't start resume peace negotiations until there is a halt on the terrorism, the suicide bombings. That has to come first.
King Abdullah: Yes.
CNN: Palestinians say they have to stop the security barrier, the so-called fence, they have to stop the settlement activity, they have to stop the clampdown on the Palestinians. What has to happen first in order to get peace negotiations going? Jordan, of course, is intimately involved, has a peace agreement, like Egypt, with Israel.
King Abdullah: Well, with everything that takes courage and initiative it's compromise. I know there is a security issue that I do believe that this Prime Minister Abu Alaa is desperately trying to solve with the Palestinians. But he needs also the support of the Israelis to commit to their side of the issue, if he's going to be able to use his credit with the Palestinians. This is the problem that we had with the Abu Mazen government. He was asked by the international community and by the Israelis to do X amount on security. When he achieved that, he was asked to do a bit more and a bit more and a bit more. Without anything in return, to the point that then he became basically neutralised. And we can't afford that right now.
CNN: Well, because when you hosted the summit in Aqaba, the president of the United States was there. There was great hope that Mahmoud Abbas, the then prime minister of the Palestinian Authority, would be able to do something, but apparently Yasser Arafat didn't give him the clout to deal with the security services, to clamp down on Hamas, Islamic Jihad that he might have liked.
King Abdullah: That was part of the issue, but I also felt at the same time that the Israeli government could have also helped Abu Mazen. I mean, when it comes to sort of the sensitive issues of settlements, of the wall, of the economic destitution of the Palestinians, they are really in an awful state, the best people who could have supported Abu Mazen at that point was the Israeli government, and so there was a series of lack of support to make Abu Mazen succeed. The problem that we're faced now, we have Abu Alaa as prime minister, but we're running out of candidates. If Abu Alaa does not succeed in getting some -- getting core Palestinian institutions to support him, to getting the Israelis to meet him halfway, if he fails, who's the next prime minister? We're running out of candidates.
CNN: Abu Alaa is Ahmed Qureia, the prime minister of the Palestinian Authority. Do you believe he will be given the authority by Yasser Arafat to do what the prime minister needs to do?
King Abdullah: Well, this is what we're all working on at the moment, to make sure that the sort of the conflict inside the Palestinian institutions are resolved, and that there is some sort of conformity to be able to move forward. But at the same time, the Israelis need to be able to sort of open up and encourage the Palestinians that when they do achieve this, that they will have help on the Israeli side.
CNN: As we speak right now, there is an effort in Cairo to try to get a suspension of terrorist activities by Hamas, Islamic Jihad against the Israelis, a one-year truce, if you will. What do you hear? What's the latest on that possibility?
King Abdullah: So far so good. And we're all supportive, we're all keeping our fingers crossed and we hope that that issue will unfold so that the Israelis and the Palestinians can get to that little baby step that we're talking about, so that the roadmap can then be put back on.
CNN: Prime Minister Sharon says the Palestinian Authority must dismantle these groups, Hamas, Islamic Jihad. Ahmed Qureia says that's unrealistic right now. What do you believe?
King Abdullah: Again, it all comes down to compromise. I know that this prime minister is sincere in trying to do the best, but there is a lot that Israelis can offer to the Palestinians also to get ammunition to this prime minister, in front of his people, in an ability to crack down on terrorist organisations.
CNN: What, specifically, do you want Prime Minister Sharon's government to do right now?
King Abdullah: Well, I think settlements are a major issue.
CNN: Be specific.
King Abdullah: I think that we -- stop settlements, I think pull out of settlements. Obviously, this is what all of us in the international community are talking about, and I think that the wall is very provocative...
CNN: The security barrier.
King Abdullah: The security barrier. Now, from the Israeli point of view, again, because both the Israelis and the Palestinians are in the trenches, and sort of living from day to day, security is a major issue to the Israelis. So this wall gives them a sense of security, but in the long term, I think it will be tremendously damaging to the Israeli-Palestinian future, Israeli-Arab future, the Israeli-Jordanian future, and also to the future of Israel. Because this wall ideally ends up cutting off 1.3 to 1.4 million Palestinians inside of Israel. And in eight, nine years, with the birth rates, 50 per cent of the Israelis are going to be Palestinians. So are you going to give them the same rights that the Israelis have? I mean, this is a major issue. I think this wall is going to be disastrous for all.
CNN: But you understand the concerns of Israel. Jordan's been a victim of suicide bombers...
King Abdullah: Yes.
CNN: You know what terrorism does. You can't blame them for trying to...
(CROSSTALK)
King Abdullah: It's a knee-jerk reaction because of the security issue. And this is why the wall is felt by many Israelis to be an issue to solve the problems. But what I am concerned is the long-term solution. The long-term solution (UNINTELLIGIBLE) create new problems.
CNN: This unofficial Geneva accord, as it's called, this peace agreement. Yossi Beilin, the former Israeli justice minister, and Yasser Abed Rabbo, the former Palestinian information minister. Is this deal, this agreement that was worked out, the future as far as Jordan is concerned?
King Abdullah: It's a very fascinating document. And basically, I know that you are monitoring the last time the Israelis and the Palestinians met at Taba, so what we're talking about in this document in Tabah plus the legs built in. And I think that any initiative that complements the peace process, that tries to move the process forward -- and the principles in the Geneva accord are actually in line with the roadmap. I think it can only be a positive thing.
CNN: Your Majesty, as usual, thanks so much for giving us the time here in Washington.
King Abdullah: Thank you very much.
CNN: Welcome to the United States.
King Abdullah: Thank you. Good to see you again.
