Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II

Der Spiegel: Your Majesty, Abu Mussab Al Zarqawi posed a threat not only to Iraq, but also to your country. Now he is dead. Has this part of the world become a safer place?

King Abdullah: One chapter was closed, but terrorism and extremism are going to continue. Al Zarqawi will be replaced by somebody else, whoever it will be. Obviously for Jordanians because of the murder of sixty people here …

Der Spiegel: ...in November, when suicide bombers attacked three hotels in Amman..

King Abdullah: it is a closure and a reason to move on. That part may be over. But it's a tactical game in the fight against terrorism. At the end of the day we want to bring stability and give hope to Iraq. That's the only way to defeat terrorism.

Der Spiegel: Is it true that Jordanian intelligence played a decisive role in tracking Al Zarqawi down?

King Abdullah: We have played a role and this is not something new. We have been working with the international community not only in relation to Al Zarqawi, but in tracking down many other terrorists as well. Historically with Germany we have done a lot of close work. This was part of a global strategy.

Der Spiegel: Even after his death Al Zarqawi caused trouble. Four members of Parliament, belonging to the ‘Islamic Action Front' paid condolences to his family. They called him a hero, a martyr, and even a mudjahid. Is the stability of your country endangered?

King Abdullah: No, not at all. There are some elements in our society who are misguided individuals. Al Zarqawi was a mass murderer, not only killing innocent people in Jordan, but also in Iraq and elsewhere. I cannot fathom how some people can make this man a hero. Forget about actions he has taken against people in uniform, there are people in Jordan, Iraq and some other countries who have suffered the loss of civilians, men, women and children.

As for the Islamic movement, I believe that when we look at Jordan, the overwhelming majority are moderate, peace-loving people. I think the debate in our society now is that people have to agree on zero-tolerance to terrorism. We have to identify to everybody what terrorism is, and this is what the Amman Message says: that we cannot put up with extremism any more. We want to reach out to the overwhelming majority of moderate Muslims throughout the world. And obviously, the Amman Message is extremely important, not just for the Islamic world, but also in reaching out to Europe, because you have Muslim communities in your countries. The way I look at Muslims in Germany, for example, is that the country offers them protection and the same rights as any other community inside Germany, and in return, they need to abide to the loyalty of the state. They may be Muslims, but they should be proud Germans, too. This is the message.

Der Spiegel: Did those four members of Parliament trespass a red line?

King Abdullah: I don't think there should be any tolerance to people that incite and support terrorism in any form, and I think this is not just a snapshot for Jordan, I think this is a snapshot for the international community. If people are actively supporting and encouraging terrorism, then they're on the other side of the fence. What we're saying as a part of Jordan, as a part of the Amman message for the Islamic world but also reaching out to the Western world is we all have to decide what is humanity, and what is the commonality between Muslims, Christians, and Jews, God-fearing people who believe, you know, good as opposed to evil. And I think that's the line we draw, not just for Jordan but for all countries.

Der Spiegel: What do you do in order to draw the line?

King Abdullah: I'm having a lunch today with leaders of my community, and there will be members of the Muslim Brotherhood who at the end of the day are moderates. I think you understand the difference between takfir, takfir is calling another person an apostate, and basically, takfir ideology if you don't agree with me, I have the right to kill you, which I can't understand how that has anything to do with religion. In my discussions with the Muslim Brotherhood here is I don't believe that the majority of you are takfir, I believe that the overwhelming majority of you are moderate, but you have to show the line. If you believe that the killing of innocent people is right, then you are not part of my future. And so this is the interaction that we are having with society at the moment.

Der Spiegel: Are you going to redefine your relationship with the Muslim brotherhood?

King Abdullah: They have to redefine their relationship with us. They have been working in the grey area for the past decades. I think society throughout the world now has to decide what is good and what is evil. I believe that the majority of the Brotherhood wants a good future for this country, and a good future for their children. I think that we can all work as a team. But there are some principles. Takfîr is not one of them.

Der Spiegel: Is Iraq defining the future of your country and other countries of the Middle East?

King Abdullah: What happens in Iraq is having an effect on all of us. It is a consequence of the make-up of Iraq, and the borders that surround Iraq. That is why we all pray that Iraq will move in the right direction. I think we have seen some successes, at least when it comes to elections. A government has been formed, it has to be a national unity government which accepts everybody as part of the future Iraq. Whoever assumes the post of defence or interior minister, should not represent a specific sect, but should represent all Iraqis. If Iraq is alright, it will be immediately part of the international community. But if Iraq continues its sectarian violence, God forbid it, that leads to a civil war. That is going to hurt all in the region. Iran has obviously some interest in the future of Iraq, the Turks have an issue with the Kurds, we have relationships in Iraq - so, civil war in Iraq , everybody pays a price for it. No matter how far away, we will all feel the effects.

Der Spiegel: Do you think that Prime Minister Malaki will have a better chance getting things done than his predecessor?

King Abdullah: I can say ‘so far so good'. He has a lot of work ahead of him. He needs the support of all of us. Jordan will do all we can to support the government to be able to move forward. We hope that others in the region will help the Iraqis also.

Der Spiegel: What are the lessons to be learnt from Iraq: ‘stability first' , democracy second?

King Abdullah: I look back on our Jordanian experience. We concentrated on socio-economic aspects to make sure that the stomach was full for individuals. And I think that if a society is comfortable economically and socially, we can make great strides politically.

Der Spiegel: That's Western approach.

King Abdullah: Look at Iraq: They have elections, whilst people are dying every day, that's the problem. So, we had an election process, and that is a good sign. But unless there is stability, there is not going to be the future we wish for Iraq. Therefore, stability and reform have to go hand-in-hand. So we do not have civil war, we do not have conflict. Stability for us is socio-economic which allows us to move on a political process. Iraq is slightly different, they had elections reform, but we still need the stability on the ground.

Der Spiegel: The political benefactor of the troubles in Iraq is Iran. Does Iran help to solve the problem in Iraq or is it part of the problem?

King Abdullah: What is very interesting over the past several weeks is that European countries have been closely working with the United States to try and have dialogue with Iran. If I was in Iranian shoes I would consider it very good to have dialogue. Because if you do not have dialogue you have misunderstanding. I am encouraging all sides to have dialogue, to be able to talk about all issues related to Iran. It is not just Iraq, there are issues of oil, the nuclear programme, the relations with certain organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah and others. But there have to be benchmarks for dialogue and expectations. Open-end dialogue does not get us anywhere. I hope that the Iranians, the Europeans and the Americans will have a strategy that will lead to something constructive.

Der Spiegel: Recently, we interviewed President Musharraf and he said that the Iranians were very keen on the bomb. Do you share this view?

King Abdullah: I have been told that they want it for peaceful purposes. So I hope the Iranian programme will be a peaceful one and will not create a new crisis. A nuclear arms race is the last thing that the region needs.

Der Spiegel: Israel is supposed to be a nuclear power.

King Abdullah: I've always believed in a nuclear free zone in the Middle East. We do not need such things in an area with such an amount of instability, and which has so many issues that need to be settled in the region.

Der Spiegel: What would be worse -a nuclear armed Iran or an attack on Iran in order to prevent it from acquiring nuclear weapons?

King Abdullah: Any action leads to reaction. If Iran is attacked, it would retaliate somehow, and you can never plan any operation and know that you can contain it. Any military action will be detrimental to all of us in the region.

Der Spiegel: Iran apparently assumes that the US are politically not strong enough and not in the mood to strike.

King Abdullah: It is always dangerous to underestimate anybody. The same could be said from the other side in view of Iran threatening others. We have to be honest and straightforward with each other. When we start to underestimate the opposition we get into trouble.

Der Spiegel: How do you see assess the situation in this part of the world: Is by now Iraq the main issue of concern or is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict still the main issue?

King Abdullah: I have always said that the core problem is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I still believe that it is.

Der Spiegel: It has not shifted?

King Abdullah: We cannot belittle what is happening in Iraq. We have two major issues we have to deal with both of importance. The long-term main issue is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, simply because if we do not resolve it, we cannot resolve the Israeli-Arab issue. That's why I think it has much more implications on the future of this region. Peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians does not stop at the Jordan River or the Golan Heights or the Sinai. Peace for Israelis means - as far as I am concerned - its inclusion in the Middle East from Morocco at the Atlantic Ocean all the way to the Gulf and the Indian Ocean. If we have an interim solution that may not give the Palestinians the aspirations they hope for, my concern is that we may not be able to get an Arab-Israeli peace. Therefore we spare no effort in order to spare a coming generation another ten years of conflict.

Der Spiegel: Five years ago, you expelled the Hamas exile leaders from Jordan. You don't really seem to trust Hamas being able to contribute to peace.

King Abdullah: We have to differentiate between Hamas internal and Hamas external. Hamas on the ground has been elected by the majority of votes. They are now in a position of government. With such responsibilities, you have to be responsible and know how to deal with things. Hamas realises this. It is very easy to be in the outside saying slogans. Now they have to be there for the future of the Palestinians. They have to show responsibility in their position as government. I hope that the situation on the ground will change some of their stances.

Der Spiegel: Right now, Hamas and Fatah seem to be on the brink of a civil war.

King Abdullah: What we have seen in the past couple of days between Fatah and Hamas is extremely dangerous. At a time where Palestinians endure so much suffering, they need to be one.

Der Spiegel: To many Westerners it is hard to understand such a degree of self-destruction.

King Abdullah: Political organisations and parties are looking after their own personal ambitions. Each one is thinking about their own future as opposed to the future of their people. We want to encourage Hamas to be able to move forward. The Israelis, too, have to be flexible enough in order to guarantee a future for the Palestinian people. Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert has said that he believes in the peace process and the roadmap and that he wants to give it a chance. We all should encourage the Palestinians and the Israelis to concentrate on the great final goal of a genuine peace, with a secure Israel, living side by side with a viable, independent Palestinian state.

Der Spiegel: Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas wants to hold a referendum in the West Bank and in the Gaza strip hoping that the majority of Palestinians accept direct negotiations with Israel on the basis of the existing agreements.

King Abdullah: I hope that there's going to be a positive outcome for the referendum, because I think it will get the Palestinians back on track and move them in the right direction.

Der Spiegel: Next week you are going to host a Nobel Laureates meeting for the second time. Are you going to offer a new peace initiative?

King Abdullah: Part of the discussions with the Nobel Laureates will be centred around the Israeli-Palestinian issue. When so many brilliant minds come together maybe that they could come up with formulas and ideas completely out of the box. Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert have been invited. So, there may be an opportunity for them to exchange views with the best and the brightest minds that the world has to offer.

Der Spiegel: Your Majesty, thank you very much for this interview.